(05-26-2016, 09:44 AM)EroticUdyr Wrote:1. Perhaps you should look at the definition of circular reasoning.(05-26-2016, 08:50 AM)Anallee Wrote: An extensive yet nonetheless bit of circular reasoning. So you tell me. Who is being targeted? Who is being bullied? Who will be the censors? And who are the victims? What mob do you see? Cutting and pasting my points, neglecting content or intent proves nothing. I have read all these poems. I cannot identify an individual. I identify the pain. Perhaps you have a power we don't. If you are referring to my poems, I have made it abundantly clear that none of you rise to that level of passion with me. They are drawn from my life and people with faces, or is that too difficult for you to understand. I have read far more offensive pieces here, yet I respect the authors' right to post. I hardly agree with a lot of it and I don't prevent it from being posted. Creative writing is just that. And, if anyone feels ill at ease when reading some of it, perhaps there is a valid reason for that.
Political correctness will be the death of us all.
Well, circular reasoning isn't necessarily a bad thing. I wanted to mention it in the beginning as "food for thought", in form of a question.
And as you may or may not have noticed, the ending is my opinion, not in the form of a question. Not really a logical fallacy as you'd have it to be.
You ask if I see specific individuals being targeted, being victimized and what specific mob I see, which is kinda redundant.
I do not speak about specific people, nor specific poems. We are talking about targeted poems in general, and I mentioned what such poems may lead to. If you want to be condescending and question my capability to understand, you should at least rid yourself of your fifth grade argumentation. As mentioned, I did not make an argument mentioning specific poems, certainly not yours.
Because I don't read yours.
Your feelings however are yours to describe and do what you wish with. By your immense desire to question other's understanding, I am sure you understood the part about the guidelines.
Or maybe you are trying to tell that someone's feelings overrule the guidelines and rules that are set for the whole community, including the moderators themselves? I don't see how anyone could possibly think their negative feelings for another individual gives the right to possibly create a mob mentality, that also targets the victim of the poem.
"Who is being targeted?", I am very sure you are friends with most of the poetic authors on this forum. Shouldn't be too hard for you to ask them, they should be able to give you a concrete answer.
"Who is being bullied?", This is a possibility that follows the possibility of creating a mob, after the author has publicly shared his/her point of view and feelings towards a specific individual.
"Who will be the censors?", I am guessing you mean who will be the judges to decide what poems are allowed or not? Well, the whole community should participate in this, but the legal action would be done by the moderators. Kinda obvious, imo.
"And who are the victims?", The victim is the individual the targeted poem is referring to. Obviously.
"What mob do you see?", I see the possibility of mobs forming when such poems are made. Not one singular specific mob.
"I cannot identify an individual.", That is indeed a hard task to do when the poems do not mention names. Though, finding out who the author has targeted with a poem like that is not equally difficult. Especially if you are on good terms with the author.
"Perhaps you have a power we don't.", I have the power to think for myself. I judge the poems to be targeted towards one or several specific individuals. Which I think is an unfair way to bring out your opinions and your poinf of view, no matter how ill you think/feel about someone.
Political correctness can often be seen as a fundamental element to set guidelines, in order for groups of people to behave in a respectful and understanding way. Such as the saying "do unto others as you would have them do unto you", a religious statement.
Very political correct imo, because I do not believe anyone has the right to treat others in a certain way if they would not accept being treated the same.
I would definitely not label that as a possible threat which will "end us all".
-Erotic
(05-26-2016, 09:34 AM)Sharp Wrote: I can't speak for others, but at no point, in any of my writings, or actually in anything I've ever done in my life, have I sought pity. I despise pity. Pity from others puts you beneath them, as though their life is so much better than yours. Pity towards others puts you above them, as though it is your life that is so much better. Sometimes I look for empathy instead, hoping that I will find somebody in a similar position or situation who can help me and I can help them, or just so that others can read it and think, "I'm not alone in this."
That's why I shared Silence & Darkness, not as a means to get people to take pity on me and be nice to me, but to show others who suffer(ed) from similar feelings that they are never alone. And you know what? I had several people open up to me after that, and I know it helped them. Empathy, not pity, is always the goal for me.
Now, I know those two poems are not aggressive, but this point is still valid; if somebody chooses to pity me after reading those, that is on them. If somebody chooses to empathize with me, then that is on me. It applies to everything. If offence is intended, that is the fault of the author. If offence is taken, that is not the fault of the author (nor the fault of the reader, so don't suggest I'm trying to blame or shame anybody who takes offence).
Now, I have re-read a lot of the poems on here since Emmie raised the point. Some of them I know are aimed at people from MnF, and are forum users. One of them I am aware was, in part, directed at me, although wrongly, and I have received an apology for that.
I have also written one myself that was about somebody who uses the forum and I knew would read it. It hurt them, I apologised and explained, they accepted, we are close friends, and they have at no point even hinted that I should take it down.
"And there you go, you've made a bandwagon. Congratulations, you have successfully made several people target one specific individual." Which specific individual? Nobody has been specified.
The thing is, not a single poem on here that expresses such hate and aggression gives any clear indication of who it is aimed towards. Only those recognise themselves in the words, or those that the author has no doubt voiced their thoughts and feelings towards already, can really be sure of who it is about. If people want to speculate as to who the 'target' is, so be it, but unless the author actually comes out and says "yes, it was that person" then they aren't actually trying to turn anybody against anyone.
I present one of my recent poems, I Won't Fight You Anymore. At no point have I given any indication to who this is about. At no point have I attempted to get people to take pity on me. At no point have I attempted to form a mob and get them to fight alongside me. Read all of my other poems. Identify a single person I actually am aggressive towards, or a poem where I try to make the readers turn on another person.
I write poems because it has become my most effective way of dealing with my depression, anxiety and anger issues. When I am writing, it is also one of the few times I am truly focussed, so in a way I like to think it helps with me ADD. And I share them, as I said, so that people can empathize with me, so I can give them that comfort of knowing they are not alone.
And also because I just want to share. I was at a beer festival a couple of weeks back, and was chatting with some strangers, and ended up showing them some of my poems. Why? Because I have a sense of pride in them. Sure, they aren't all always that great, but it's something I created, and I'm proud of that. Would you tell an painter not to hang their paintings in a gallery? Would you tell a musician not to sing their songs? Of course you wouldn't. Do I listen to a song about a cheating girlfriend and think "oh, what a bitch, let's start a mob and burn her house down!"? Of course I don't. And if somebody did, would you lay blame at the feet of the person who sang that song? No, you would blame the person who burnt her house down.
Not a single poem that I have seen on here is inciting hatred or violence. They don't tell people to gang up on anybody. They don't seek to form an army to wage war on those who once insulted them. They just say "yeah, this happened and I'm not too happy about it," or "here's something somebody did, and I think that is wrong." So, if a mob does form and target somebody, then that is down to either the readers reacting in a way they shouldn't, or because somebody has made that happen another way.
And a final point.
"Here is the disgusting part, some of the authors of these poems claim they are being bullied."
I know who this comment is aimed at. And you know that I will know, and others will know. THIS is targeted. THIS is no less of an attack than anything written in the poems posted here.
What I suspect is how easy it is to know who the poems are targeting, especially if you have the right relations with individuals that are involved in the case.
About pity: I did not say the author was wishing for pity, but that is mostly what you will get when or if you victimize yourself. Victimizing oneself is thereofore not an effective way of resolving a dispute.
I suspect mob mentality to be a threat on this forum. Now you may also know that the ones who had that "campaign" against you were also affected by said mentality, that's understandable, right?
Someone speaks to a crowd of people, they listen, and before they are able to figure out who actually said this and that, you end up with a mob that targets specific individuals.
I have not mentioned any specific poems, I have talked about the danger of making targeted poems. Mainly because of the possibility of creating a mob mentality within the community.
"Here is the disgusting part, some of the authors of these poems claim they are being bullied.", Of course this is targeted, and it is justified as well, because it is the truth. Do I not have the right to think it's disgusting of someone to claim they're being bullied when they make targeted poems, which as mentioned may lead to a herd?
You've witnessed it yourself several times, how certain people manage to turn others against eachother, have you not? I have.
Now, the possibility of a poem making a mob that targets a specific individual is, of course, debatable. This is however my opinion.
Freedom of speech, yo.
-Erotic
2. " you should at least rid yourself of your fifth grade argumentation". You know so little of me and have just proved your ignorance and bigotry. Do I consider this targeted? Yes I do. So as Lexi so aptly put it a hypocritical piece of shit fits you nicely.
3. I never question another's understanding. You seem to do it all the time.
4. Don't pretend to lecture me on forum guidelines. You are nothing to me other than an anonymous, faceless, pretentious fool.
5. Your assumption of who my friends are is just that, an assumption, so speaks to your arrogance and ignorance
6. I stand for Freedom. Of Thought. Of Ideas. Of Expression. Of Free Speech. Of Creative License. You stand for repression, suppression and censorship.
Buckle up buttercup, it's a big bad world out here.
Perhaps you may gain some insight from this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxyUl9M_7vc
Thank you Sharp for your eloquent and elegant words. Thank you Lexi for your blunt honesty.